My Debate with an Anti-Mormon

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:12)

The following emails are quoted exaclty as received and sent. I claim all email sent to me as mine and take the liberty of sharing it however and with whoever I please. I extend to all the opportunity to email me. This is your shot to become famous by perhaps getting your email posted on my website. Goodluck!

Joseph F. Smith's words have become my own: "I have no fears in my heart, or mind, that that which is called ‘Mormonism’—which is indeed the gospel of Jesus Christ—will not bear the scrutiny of science and the researches of the learned and literate into all truth. The gospel of Jesus is founded in truth. Every principle of it is susceptible of demonstration beyond any just reason for contradiction. The Lord is doing his work and will do it, and no power can stay it.” (Gospel Doctrine p. 1)

From (Johnnygutter@aol.com) October 3, 2000:
I have no doubt that Mormons have faith in their church. It does NOT make the Mormon church true. Other religions have as much faith as Mormons and they can't both all right. I have read the b of m. There is a great problem. It does not teach Mormon doctrine. Eternal Marriage, priesthood, Eternal progresson, i could go on and on. Mormons are duped into a corporation. Profit is the name of the game.

If the bible is not translated correctly why read it at all. It would seem your prophet could go in and change the word of God and get the mistakes out. He won,t touch it because it is the word of God. Pray and ask if the bible is true. Give it at least the same reverence as the bom.

Reply (truemormonguy@hotmail.com), October 5, 2000:
Hello. Thank you for taking the time to criticize me. I appreciate your Christ-like efforts to tear down others. I’m sure heaven smiles down upon you. You’re right, Mormons do have faith in their Church. Why shouldn’t they? Having faith in it doesn’t make it true. You’re right. Christ makes it true, because he leads it. Other religions do have as much faith as we do, and both of us can’t be right, and both of us are not right. I have read the Book of Mormon many more times and with much more prayer than you. It does teach Mormon Doctrine, apparently you do not have the Spirit of Christ to help you understand. I could show you each place that it teaches the doctrine of Eternal Marriage, it teaches priesthood in NUMEROUS places, and it teaches Eternal progression as well. You may have looked at the words, but you didn’t READ it.

Mormons are not duped into any coorporation. We are all told to read, ponder, and pray. Then, if we like the answer, follow. And I testify before God and his angels, that Mormonism is true. It will prove to your damnation if you do not stop preaching against it.

Using your own logic, if there are dozens of translations of the Bible, each different in its own way, they can’t all be right! And maybe none of them are COMPLETELY right. And our prophet did revise many of the mistakes in it by the power of God. It’s called the Joseph Smith Translation.

I know the Bible is true. I know it because I have read it cover to cover. I know it because I KNOW the Book of Mormon is true, and it testifies of the Bible. If you read the Book of Mormon, you would know that.

Stop trying to save others when you don’t know how to save yourself.
Sincerely,
Drew

From (Johnnygutter@aol.com) October 5, 2000:
Gee drew did not mean to rattle your chain. I just throw a few facts and ideas around at times. I have respect for mormons. My best friends are Mormons. I can't talk to them because the religious authorities in SLC have cautioned against talking to someone that is questionig Mormonism. I am glad you replied. WE will never know one another so we need not get personal and can stay factual in all communication.

I might know more than you think about Mormonism. Please show me where it says men can become Gods, There are 3 degrees of glory, marriage for time and eternity, and Baptism for the dead are found in th BOM. You said that I would be dammed if I kept up neg references to the Mormon church. You and I both know there is no hell in the Mormon church, just different kingdoms. Why would you say such a thing if your church does not believe in hell?

Yes Joseph started to rewrite the bible. Is that the bible you carry to church each Sunday? I think not. Why would you read the KJV if you can,t be sure where the mistakes are? Why can't your prophet write a new Bible and get rid of the improper translations? The problem is the Bible has thousands of ancient manuscripts backing it up, not to mention a copy of the old testement written 100 years before Christ called the Dead Sea Schrolls. Hard to mess with such a documented piece of literature. The Bible is the most documented work from antiquity. Compared to the BOM which has no documentation. There is not onehistorical manuscritp that can be shown to authenticate it. You must develop a super faith to accept the BOM.

Drew have you read the book of Mormon and looked for the archeological evidence. Nobody has found a thing which can support it as a historical work which it claims to be. If there was a shred of evidence to support the BOM. The Mormon church wold build a visitors center and you would be invited to come and see it on the hour every hour over tv and radio adds. I might add that the church would be doing the right thing, but this evidence does not exist. You would have a better chance of finding the lost city of gold. What evidence should be found you might say? coins, hebrew writing, swords, cities, boats charriots, and the list could go on. Where are they Drew? Don't point to South America. That area has been proven to be nothing but PAGAN.

The Lord did not intend for us to belive blindly. His ministry was one of daily miracles. I base my faith on fact, not fiction. You can believe that Joseph was a prophet and the BOM is true with every fiber of your being and be dead wrong.

DRew I have spoken to you in facts not emotion. Show me where I am wrong and I will join the Mormon church. for now i guess I am stuck in a lower kingdom.

Reply (truemormonguy@hotmail.com) October 6, 2000:
Thanks for responding again. You are apparently misinformed about many things. I pray that you’ll open up your heart and listen to what I have to say, as representative of Christ.

First, what is respect? “Respect 1) a to consider worth of high regard: ESTEEM b to refrain from interfering with” (Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary) Do you respect the Latter-day Saints? No. Not according to the Dictionary. Would you advise someone to talk to someone who will do all in his power to destroy your faith? It’s obvious why the General Authorities have given such advice.

I will show you in the Book of Mormon where it says we can and should become as Christ, and his Father, who are Gods.

“Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I AM.” (3 Nephi 27:27)

“And for this cause ye shall have a fullness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me a fullness of joy; and ye shall be even as I AM, and IAM even as the Father; and the Father and I are one.”(3 Nephi 28:10)

“Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.”(3 Nephi 12:48) Compare to: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. ”(Matthew 5:48) He’s COMMANDING us to become exalted, as he says his Father is in Matthew, and then in 3 Nephi where he says he and his Father are Exalted Beings, he commands us to become as his Father is, and as he has since became—EXALTED.

Well, according to you, the Book of Mormon doesn’t teach it. I’ve showed you. It speaks for itself. And not only that, but you say the Book of Mormon isn’t true.

The Bible speaks for itself on this topic too. So, if you don’t believe the Book of Mormon, believe the Bible.

As taught by John Taylor, a Prophet of the living God: “Without going into the full investigation of the history and excellency of God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…let us reflect that Jesus Christ, as Lord of lords, and King of Kings, must have a noble race in the heavens, or upon the earth, or else he can never be as great in power, dominion, might, and authority as the scriptures declare. John says: ‘And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him and hundred forty four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1)

“Their ‘Father’s name,’ bless me! That is GOD! Well done for Mormonism; one hundred and forty four thousand GODS, among the tribes of Isreal, and two living Gods and the Holy Ghost for this world! Such knowledge is too wonderful for men, unless they posses the spirit of the Gods.” (The Gospel Kingdom p. 29)

Origen, a early church Father said: “that according to the apocalypse of John ‘the everlasting gospel’ which shall be revealed in heaven as much surpasses our gospel as Christ’s preaching does the sacraments of the ancient law…”

Joseph Smith taught: “The dispensation of the fullness of times (this day and age) will bring to light the things that have been revealed in all former dispensations; also other things that have not been before revealed…” (The Teachings of Joseph Smith. Dahl and Cannon p. 555)

How can you argue that the Book of Mormon doesn’t talk about EVERYTHING taught by the Church when Joseph Smith taught that NEW things would be revealed—things never before revealed?

The three degrees of glory are found in the Bible, as well as marriage for time and all eternity.

As said by Paul: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago…such an one caught up in THE THIRD HEAVEN. ” (2 Corinthians 12:2)

There is a hell in Mormon Theology. You are not informed correctly. There are three kingdoms, and an outer darkness—Hell. Damnation in Mormon Theology means simply that eternal progression has stopped. Just like you dam water up from flowing, you stop it’s progression, so is Mormon damnation.

Now, let us go on to eternal marriage. Jesus Christ, my Lord, My King, My Savior and my God said: “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, for this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but on flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Matthew 19:4-6)

For further teachings on sealing and eternal marriage in the Bible, I refer you to my webpage on Eternal Marriage.

The Prophet Joseph Smith did retranslate parts of the Bible. He didn’t completely finish before he was martyred for Christ’s sake. We do carry his translation with us to church each Sunday though. Much of it is in the footnotes. But not only do we carry it Sundays, but everyday, because we believe in our God and his word. We’re not Sunday Mormons, but every day Mormons.

For your information on the mistranslations of the Bible, I refer you to the non-LDS Bible Scholar Metzger: “The number of deliberate alterations made in the interests of doctrine is difficult to assess. Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and many other Church Fathers accused the heretics of corrupting the scriptures in order to have support for their own special views.” (The text of the New Testament by Metzger)

That sounds a lot like the prophecy an Angel told Nephi in the Book of Mormon: “And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God. Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God. And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.” (2 Nephi 13:24-29)

Truly, Satan has got great hold upon the hearts of men by altering God’s word!

There is no point in arguing the achelogical evidence for the Book of Mormon. There is as much that supports it as that opposes it. I refer you to Farms Research and Jeff Linsay’s Book of Mormon evidences online, and draw to your attention that there are countless books with evidence supporting the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

You said, “The Lord did not intend for us to belive blindly. His ministry was one of daily miracles. I base my faith on fact, not fiction. You can believe that Joseph was a prophet and the BOM is true with every fiber of your being and be dead wrong.”

The Lord didn’t intend for us to believe blindly. That is why he gave us the power of prayer and the gift of the Holy Ghost. That’s the only witness that counts. For “in the last days perilous times shall come. For men “…shall be…ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (2 Timothy 3:1-2,7) Knowledge comes by the power of God, not the learning of men alone. To deny that would be to deny God. Even Christ didn’t perform miracles without the recipient first having faith in him!

I have faith in Christ. I know that he lives. I know that he is God’s Son! I know, I KNOW with every fiber of my being that the Book of Mormon is true. It is God’s word. It will prove to each individual’s salvation or damnation. I pray that I may follow Jesus in every way, and one day become even as he is.

Sincerely,
Drew

PS Baptism for the Dead is in 1 Corinthians 15:29

From (Johnnygutter@aol.com) October 6, 2000:
I give you credit for knowing more than most and showing me scriptures rather than becoming emotional. Drew i will say a few last remarks and may god bless you. Drew you can never become God. Jesus is not your elder brother and God did not have sex with Mary to produce Jesus. ISaih 43:10 tells you that God is eternal. You arer created. God was never some man on some planet working to become God. God is the eternal one. He is your creator. He came and died in your place so that your sin would not be accounted to you which would have been your damnation as well as mine. I love the lord with all my heart. Bow down and worship, do not try to become one in the same. All your works as well as mine are dirty rags unto the lord says the prophet. My sins are forgiven and Christ had made a place for me by my faith.

P.S. If you check your church history Joseph Smith was killed in a bloody shoot out. It was terrible that men had to be so evil as to kill him. I do not fault him for killing two men with a smuggled six shooter before they shot him. Self defense is the right of all men. I do feel we have over shot the mark when it is said Joseph was like a lamb for the slaughter. A smoking six shooter is not the mark of a martyr

Reply (truemormonguy@hotmail.com), October 7, 2000:
Once again, your reply shows your ignorance. Ignorance isn’t a bad thing, if we learn what is right and put it behind us, but it is when we constantly ignore the truth, and fight against it because of our ignorance.

You have taken your last remarks, and I will now give mine. I want it to close with this, before we enter a never-ending discussion. You got the first word so I get the last. Previously, you have said “DRew I have spoken to you in facts not emotion. Show me where I am wrong and I will join the Mormon church.” I did show you were you wrong. You have to admit that. As a matter of fact, you did indirectly by saying, “I give you credit for knowing more than most and showing me scriptures rather than becoming emotional.” I did show you from the scriptures. But, you are hard hearted and would reject the message if Christ himself would present it to you. Perhaps you would want him crucified like the Jews of the day, who were in apostasy as are the sects of Christendom today.

I showed you how we can become like our Father. There is nothing unreasonable about it. Do not Kings sons, who are princes, become Kings?

Psalms 82
KJV: “God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth amoung the GODS… I have said, Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like on of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth for thou shalt inherit all nations.”

NEB: “God takes his stand in the court of heaven to deliver judgment among the gods themselves. This is my sentence: Gods you may be, sons all of you of a high god, yet you shall die as men die; princes fall, every one of them, and so shall you. Arise O God, and judge the earth; for thou dost pass all nations through thy sieve.”

Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God. Beget means, “to procreate as a father”(Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary) Sure, it’s a hard pill to swallow. But, we all must come to the knowledge that Jesus is the Son, LITERALLY, of God the Father.

You stated: ” He [Jesus] came and died in your place so that your sin would not be accounted to you which would have been your damnation as well as mine. I love the lord with all my heart… All your works as well as mine are dirty rags unto the lord says the prophet. My sins are forgiven and Christ had made a place for me by my faith.”

I agree whole-heartedly. Christ not only died in our place, but he showed us how to live. He didn’t show us how to live for a thrill. He did it because he wants to follow him. He was baptized, being perfect, to show us the way. He died and was resurrected to show us what to do. He sat on his Father’s throne, in his place, to show us what to do. “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” (Revelation 3:21)

You said, “Bow down and worship, do not try to become one in the same.” I do worship God, and I will for all eternity. That will never change. I will always be subjected to him, just like we are to our Fathers on this earth even after we become Fathers ourselves.

As far as Joseph Smith killing two men, you are misinformed. No one, from all of the many references, non-LDS, and LDS, (except the non-LDS who purposely distort the truth for their own evil purposes) was killed in the Mob. Two men may have been wounded, but not killed. You’re the one who needs to look of the Church History. Ask any historian who is honest and is familiar with what happened there, and you’ll get the same answer.

Further a martyr is “one who sacrifices his life or something of great value for the sake of principle.” (Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary) Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was a martyr whether using self-defense or not. Maybe you should look up this stuff before you make accusations.

Sincerely,
Drew

From (Johnnygutter@aol.com) October 8, 2000:

Drew I give you credit for understanding Mormon doctrine, not for me being a dummy. Most Mormons do not have a clue about Joseph shooting that revolver. I can remember reading in the Deseret News where they compared Joseph's death to Christ's death. We all know that Jesus could have saved himself but he did nothing and allowed the Romans to carry out the wishes of the Jewish General Authorities by killing him. Joseph fought back and in the history of the church it says that at least one of the men later died. Your definition of a martyr becomes very broad. Any soldier who ever died in a war would be called a martyr by your definition.

Again, very few Mormons know about the doctrine of God the father copulating with his own spirit daughter to produce Jesus. Looks a little bit like incest you might say. I give you credit for not backing down and knowing this doctrine. I concede nothing to my original position. I am not ignorant of these issues. I would rather talk to someone like you than bring up doctrine and have Mormons go "We don't believe that." This has happened many times in the past. How do you discuss a topic when the practicing believers can't even follow what you are talking about? You can believe this or not, I have taken friends of mine to temple square. There we have been approached by missionaries. I asked about Mary and Becoming a God. I was told that Mormons don't believe that. Hinckley told the reporter in Frisco that becoming a God was of know interest to him and the whole thing had just come from a little couplet that had been written. If you question this I WILL guide you to the article. I really feel you are told what you want to hear MILK before meat you know.

The Bible is explicit on how Jesus gained his mortal body. Mary bore Jesus and was a virgin. Jesus was not the product of sex. He was created by the Holy Spirit. I will take the Bible over Brigham any day. Do you believe in Adam God? If not why not Brigham taught it.

Drew I am not ignorant and I don't consider you ignorant. It is refreshing to talk to someone who can at least follow the logic chain of Mormonism. Most Mormons can't. I would love to hear your rebuttal on the following:

1 How do you handle the problems with The book of Abraham? I am sure you have heard about this one. A pagan funeral document not the writings of father Abaham.

2. How about all those neat faith promoting documents the prophet seer and revelator Kimball was buying off brother Hoffman. He used your tithing.

3. Following a wimpy little God that changes his eternal mind every time the Gvt comes around. Polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, Temple ordinances that are a little to graphic.

Prophets that allow someone to lie to the members for years and do nothing until the pressure is so great they have to get Paul H. to quietly step down. Where is the power to discern?

I love you and all the Mormons, But there are things that need peopleto step back and question now and again. I am a student of the Bible. I do not belong to any church title.

I work on a personal level with my Lord. I trust in him ,not a so called prophet. Because I am a son of God I know my place with Christ is assured. I will pass by the judgment because of faith in my Lord. IT can be no other way. The lord cannot look at sin with any allowance. Drew are you perfect? Neither am I. If we stand at the judgment we will be found guilty for sure. I know that I am going to be living with Jesus because the Bible promised me that because of my faith God would no longer hold my sin against me. The bible says that the law is nothiing compared to faith in Jesus. I am free of the horror of works. I do good works daily but they are not what gets me into heaven. I love the promise of grace without the deeds of the law. I have been set free. No group will ever hold it over me. I judge no man. I hold tight to God's word. Jesus said heaven and Earth may pass away, But never his word. Joseph said the word was lost. I don't think so. How dare Mormons say that my Christian brothers who were ripped apart by lions as the romans laughed died for a church that was lost. My christian brothers went to their deaths with Christ's words on their lips and eventually brought a pagan nation to Christ.

Every human who has looked to Christ and died is now living with our Lord. No group has monopoly rights when it comed to God. I see no special thing about Mormons. They are no better or worse than anyone else. We are all sinners. We all need the blood of Christ to wash us clean. Drew i will bet that if we sat down and compared our lives they would be much the same. WE both hate sin and want to do good things. The only difference is you feel you must work through the Mormon system, and I am going straight to the source.

You may laugh at this, but think. In the world there are many people who are kind and do good works all the time and they are Pagan. I wont name all the religions cause you know them. These people who could give a crap about Jesus do good things all the time, But if you talked to them about Jesus they would tell you to shove it. This proves to me that faith is more important than any special works. I would dare say there are even dogs that would give their lives to protect their masters. People are inclined to run from these times of need.

I find the Mormon church way to focused on works. You can be 200 lb. Over weight and go to the temple but sip a little tea and you have really put your salvation in doubt. I still do not see how the lord could actually make wine and get into the celestial kingdom. Don't insult my intelligence and tell me it was grape juice. No refrigeration in those days my friend wine is wine and the lord's was some of the best according to scripture.

We never got to 43-10 Before me there was no God created, neither shall there be after me. I am the first and the last, beside me there is no other God. Jesus is speaking in the old test. Hmmmmm already God and not even been to the temple, pretty slick..............................

Not trying to beat you up with the last word. We could not end on me being uninformed. Again I say bravo to you. You are a Mormon of faith and doing it with your head out of the sand. A little challenge ask others in your ward about these topics sometime, and see how many people are aware of these doctrines. God Bless you always.

JOHNNY If you need last word send it my friend..................

P.S. on your many Gods. Jesus called the Jewish General Autorities that were resposible for his murder Gods. How could that be you might say? Because The jewish leaders interpeted and enforced the law they were looked upon by the people as little Gods. These gods are easy to spot. They are the gods which wear asbestos boots for eternity. THOSE THAT FOLLOWED THESE SO CALLED gods SPIT AND HIT OUR LORD AS HE CARRIED HIS CROSS. Not exactly the kinda gods we might want to encounter.

IN the beginning was the word and the word was with God and was God And the word was made flesh that he might dwell among us. Jesus said I am that I am which has always been interpeted as the Eternal one. Jesus said" IF YOU BELIEVENOT THAT I AM THE ETERNAL GOD THEN YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN AND WHERE I AM GOING YOU CANNOT COME..............................................

Drew do you know the eternal God, or are you following a God that was once a man who has worked up through the ranks. These man Gods are often to busy with their harems to pay attention to our prayers and concerns. That is why I always worship a God who is eternal. A God that was God fom everlasting to everlasting.

Reply (truemormonguy) October 8, 2000:
I’ll present a situation and hopefully it will bury the discussion of Joseph Smith being a martyr or not. Suppose Billy Graham was chased from place to place his whole life because of what he taught. His closest friends left him, and betrayed him. He was imprisoned, starved, abused, shot at, and persecuted more than anyone else. His followers were murdered, raped, tarred and feathered. They lost everything they had to evil men who’s place is in the punishments of eternity. Finally, after establishing a great city, and a great people, he was going to be drug to jail again. Not this time! He hid himself, for surely, it would prove his destruction. Then from the pleas of his closest friends, he gave himself up willingly. He went knowing full well that he wouldn’t return. He even said that he wouldn’t. A mob of 200 wicked men storm in to the jail he was in, and shoot his brother who was his closest friend in front of his eyes. In turn, he picks up his pistol and returns fire and hits one of those wicked men. A fraction of a second later, he was shotfour or five times, at least three in the back, and one in the chest, He died with name of the Savior on his lips. Now, would Billy Graham be a martyr? You can be sure of that. You can also be sure that his place in the Kingdom of God would be secured eternally. And so it is with Joseph Smith. If it were anyone else but Joseph Smith, you would call him a great martyr. It doesn’t concern the Lord what you think about it. Neither does it me. He was a martyr and a prophet of God and will be forever. His testimony is sealed in his blood as a testimony to God against all the world who will not follow his anointed.

About the birth of Christ, we’ve already covered that ground. I showed you clearly why I believe what I believe. You don’t believe the same, and that’s all. You have no more evidence against it than I have for it. I used the word of God to show you, and you use your accusations to show me. If what happened between God the Father and Mary was incest, so was the relationship of Adam and Eve’s children—so was Abraham and Sarah’s marriage being brother and sister—and so were MANY other instances in the Bible. You’re familiar with it. I don’t know how you could use that as an argument against anything having read the Bible.

You said: “How do you discuss a topic when the practicing believers can't even follow what you are talking about?” Well, maybe it shouldn’t be discussed. There are things that are sacred. There are things that are the mysteries of the Kingdom. A mystery is something hard to understand or understood by a few enlightened people. Once again, you know that because you’ve read the Bible. Many of the things you bring up are not very well known among the members because they are mysteries and are not important for salvation. Salvation is based on having faith in and following Jesus Christ, not knowing mysteries.

You said: “The Bible is explicit on how Jesus gained his mortal body.” You’re right! It is PERFECTLY clear. It says “Then said Mary unto the angel, how shall this be, (having a child) seeing I know not a man? And angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the HIGHEST shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of GOD.” (Luke 1:34-35)

There are two different individuals made mention of here. The Holy Ghost and the Highest. The Holy Ghost came upon her, and the power of the Highest, that is God the Eternal Father, overshadowed her. Thus the holy thing born of her is the Son of God, not the Son of the Holy Ghost.

You do not understand the Adam-God Doctrine. I can’t say I do either. How can you declare something you don’t understand false? And how can I believe in something I don’t understand? This much I do know, Brigham Young taught:

“The good book--the Bible, tells us what kind of a character our Heavenly Father is. In the first chapter of Genesis and the 17th verse, speaking of the Lord creating men, it reads as plain as it can read, and He created man in His own image and likeness; and if He created Adam and Eve in His own image, the whole human family are like Him.“(Journal of Discourses 13:308-309)

“The world may in vain ask the question, "Who are we?" But the Gospel tells us that we are the sons and daughters of that God whom we serve. Some say, "we are the children of Adam and Eve." So we are, and they are the children of our Heavenly Father. We are all the children of Adam and Eve, and they and we are the offspring of Him who dwells in the heavens, the highest Intelligence that dwells anywhere that we have any knowledge of.” (Journal of Discourses 13:311)

Further: “I believe the Father came down in His tabernacle and begat Jesus Christ. Mr. B. believes He has no tabernacle. I believe He has a tabernacle, and begat Jesus Christ in His express image and likeness, because the Bible expressly declares it. You disbelieve it, because your priest and your mother have taught you it is not so. When your mothers first read this Scripture, it was so plain to their understandings and to their children, that they understood it as an angel would, but deacon Jones must be called in to explain, and he explained it away. So I disagree with you, Mr. B., in the first point we have noticed, for you believe that God is without body and parts, while the Bible declares He has a corporeal body; that in His likeness, precisely, He created Adam.” (Journal of Discourses 1:238)

This is the Doctrine he taught, and the doctrine still endorsed by the Church to this day. We are the Children of God, and God is the Father of Adam. Adam is not God, and Brigham Young did not teach that. He is must be misunderstood. I don’t claim to understand it, and neither can you. But President Young is perfectly clear on the character of God in other sermons as quoted above.

Of the Adam-God doctrine he emphasized that it is “considerable of a mystery,” “that should not trouble us at all,” and was not “necessary for the people to know.” (Journal of Discourses 4:217; 7:238, 285; 11:43, 268)

And the crown for the Adam-God theory and why it is not doctrine of the church is best said by Brigham Young: “In trying all matters of doctrine, to make a decision valid, it is necessary to obtain a unanimous voice, faith, and decision. In the capacity of a Quorum, the three First Presidents must be one in their voice--the Twelve Apostles must be unanimous in their voice, to obtain a righteous decision upon any matter that may come before them, as you may read in the Doctrine and Covenants. The Seventies may decide upon the same principle. Whenever you see these Quorums unanimous in their declaration, you may set it down as true.” (Journal of Discourses 9:91-92)

That never happened. As a matter of fact, Elder Orson Pratt spoke against it as well as other church authorities. It never even made it past the twelve. Brigham Young was a prophet, but also a man. He could make mistakes. It’s not my place to say he did or didn’t though. I will know in a future day. But once again It is one of the mysteries not needed for personal salvation. So leave it alone!

I will give my rebuttal on your questions. Before I do, I want it perfectly clear that I do not plan to further this discussion unless you are seriously considering what I’m teaching. But, as far as I can tell, it’s just the start of a never-ending discussion in which you will never be satisfied. I have better things to do. There’s a lot of good to be done and your keeping me from doing it unless you’re heart is changing.

“1. How do you handle the problems with The book of Abraham? I am sure you have heard about this one. A pagan funeral document not the writings of father Abaham.”

Soon after the purchase of the original papyri, Joseph Smith state that he “commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and…found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt.” (History of the Church, 2:236) In December of that year he said that “The Record of Abraham and Joseph, found with the mummies, is beautifully written on papyrus, with black, and a small part red, ink or pain, in perfect preservation.” (History of the Church, 2:384) The Book of Breathing text is entirely different. They are neither beautifully written nor well preserved and were devoid of rubrics (passages in red). The Book of Breathing, as now owned by the Church conspicuously fail to qualify as the manuscript Joseph used to translate the Book of Abraham.

ONE of the THREE or more original scrolls was described as long enough that when “unrolled on the floor, it extended through two rooms of the Mansion House.” That’s HUGE! In 1906, Joseph F. Smith remembered Uncle Joseph down on his knees on the floor with Egyptian manuscripts spread out all around him. When one considers that the eleven fragments now in our possession can easily be spread out on the top of a small desk, it would seem that what is missing is much more than what we have. This fact alone demonstrates that significant portions of the original scrolls are still lost. The Book of Abraham is lost with them.

“2. How about all those neat faith promoting documents the prophet seer and revelator Kimball was buying off brother Hoffman. He used your tithing.”

What about them? Who EVER said that a prophet is omniscient? Only God is, my friend. Who ever said that a prophet can never be deceived by a liar? That doesn’t change the fact that he is a mouthpiece for God. That is such a poor criticism from the enemies of the truth.

“3. Following a wimpy little God that changes his eternal mind every time the Gvt comes around. Polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, Temple ordinances that are a little to graphic.”

How dare you call the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob wimpy!! God will damn such souls to hell! Be it known to all the world, that the Mormon’s God is the same God that will one day destroy all those who oppose his Holy work!

God has never changed his mind. He has never withdrawn his holy laws and principles. He taught in the Book of Mormon that Polygamy is only practiced when a righteous seed is to be brought up unto the Lord. He also has taught us, the Mormons, in the last days to honor and sustain the laws of the land. But his principles never have changed. Blacks had a curse placed on their race. Who are you to say that God can not lift a curse? Is not your God merciful? Hasn’t he lifted many curses from each of use each time he forgives us of our sin? As far as temple ordinances go, you no nothing. You haven’t participated in them. You know why you haven’t? Because they are sacred and not made for you to understand until you’re ready to. Who are you to say that they can’t be edited by the Lord who gave them?

“Prophets that allow someone to lie to the members for years and do nothing until the pressure is so great they have to get Paul H. to quietly step down. Where is the power to discern?”

Here you go again! You have more faith in the Mormon prophet than we do! You expect him to be GOD, for only God would know all. It’s ridiculous to think other wise.

You said: “I find the Mormon church way to focused on works. You can be 200 lb. Over weight and go to the temple but sip a little tea and you have really put your salvation in doubt. I still do not see how the lord could actually make wine and get into the celestial kingdom. Don't insult my intelligence and tell me it was grape juice. No refrigeration in those days my friend wine is wine and the lord's was some of the best according to scripture.”

The Word of Wisdom was neither revealed nor practiced in the lifetime of Christ. So, anyone could drink all the wine they wanted. There was no commandment to the contrary. We never claimed there was. In the days of Moses, prohibitions were made on what to eat. To keep the commandments, they had to be followed then. It’s the same now. There are things the Lord reveals that he wants us to follow and do. People can follow the Word of Wisdom and be overweight. Why are you judging obese people?

Isaiah 43:10 was directed to a people who had a history of worshiping many gods. To us, there will never be another God. For us there will never be another God created who deserves our reverence and worship. For us, there never was another before who did.

Is he not called the God of gods, King of kings and Lord of lords? Why, you say, there is but one God. Well then, I guess he is the God of HEATHEN Gods, for there is only one true God! He must also be the King of the heathen and satanic kings! And not only that, but he is the Lord of the heathen lords! Not so, brother! He is the God of many true Gods, and King of the many true Kings, and Lord of the many true Lords. But for us, and to us, there is one God and one Lord even the Father and the Son.

“For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge…But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak.” (1 Corinthians 8:5-7, 9)

I have countless more scriptures in the Bible showing man’s potential to become like their Father, but you won’t listen. You’ll argue and say I interpret it wrong. I don’t think I’ll waste my time.

I too know that Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved. It is through his sacrifice that we have any hope to return to our Father. No matter what we do, we’d be unprofitable servants in the vineyard of the Lord. We are less than the dust we were created from, for at least the dust obeys his every command. My standing on this is made perfectly clear in my other writings. I do not want to take the time to go into it here. You can read it for yourself here. My position on grace and works is also clear. I believe it is by faith we are saved. Works are a result of faith. Any one that has faith will follow Christ. You can read my thoughts and scripture references on that here.

I boldly testify that I know God lives. I know that his son, Jesus Christ, lived and died for us. Today, He still lives. He sits on the right hand of the Father directing his Kingdom that is in heaven and on earth. I testify, and my testimony is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is God’s holy word. “And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. And if they are not the words for Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write there things, notwithstanding my weakness. And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that may of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at the great and last day.” (The Prophet Nephi in 2 Nephi 33:10-12)

"Persecution has not stopped the progress of truth, but has only added fuel to the flame, it has spread with increasing rapidity. Our missionaries are going forth to different nations...The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done."
--Prophet Joseph Smith

I seal my testimony as a witness before God at the last day to your rejection or acceptance of the truth.
Sincerely Yours,
Drew

PS: For further clarification. Mormons do NOT believe that God the Father had sexual intercourse with Mary to create Jesus. All of the standard works and teachings of the prophets and apostles declare that she was indeed a virgin when Jesus was born. But, on the other hand, Jesus is the literal physical son of the Father. He is the Only Begotten, or procreated of God. Procreated means "to beget or bring forth offspring." It does not state sexual intercourse has to be the means of bringing offspring forth. This is another anti-mormon misconception for spreading false truths about the Church of God.

"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. Mary, his mother, 'was carried away in the Spirit' (1 Ne. 11:13-21), was 'overshadowed' by the Holy Ghost, and the conception which took place 'by the power of the Holy Ghost' resulted in the bringing forth of the literal and personal Son of God the Father. (Alma 7:10; 2 Ne. 17:14; Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38.) Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 18-20.) Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false. (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.822,)

"He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth. (See 1 Nephi 11:20.)" ("Joy in Christ," Ensign 16 [March 1986]: 3-4.,President Benson)

As we can see, the virgin birth is an official doctrine of the Church. Occasionally, the critics produce statements from LDS literature like the following:

"God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says." (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.742)

"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (President Brigham Young on April 9, 1852. The Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50)

It is worth noting that many of these clarifying statements appear in the exact same literature as the other statements quoted above. Therefore, the critics were aware of them and purposely chose to ignore them. I will leave it to your judgment as to why the anti-mormons would want to do that.
AM

Disclaimer: I have received many emails regarding the exchange given above in which certain individuals are either highly appreciative or critical of how I handled things. I wish to clearly state here that I am not speaking for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but only as a member of the said church. I feel the views expressed are in perfect harmony with LDS teachings, although I can only claim them as my own views.

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